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| When I first started FACES site, I knew there would be some who frankly wouldn't care for it -- and some of them would be simply wrong. That's not arrogance or ignorance talking -- that's the way it is with anything we might discuss. Many people make a judgment about what they choose to believe based on some kind of gut response rather than a measured, considered response. In that particular vein, I thought FACES would be a keen way to get people to rethink their own biases about each other -- by giving them some other "gut" reaction tothe people they interact with every day at CARM, including (in my own limited power) a few laughs for the sake of breaking down walls. I admit it: the jokes are intended to break down walls between people -- which is probably why I have taken the Ephesians5 challenge made to FACES so seriously. Paul warns us in Eph 5 not to participate in coarse jesting for a specific reason. However, Paul also makes the warning that even "foolish talking" -- joking around -- should be avoided in favor of "giving of thanks". Is Paul forbidding all joking in Christian life? He makes this admonition in the exact same sentence in which he forbids "coarse jesting", so the same weight and consideration must be given to this statement. But what does it mean? I posed this question in the CARM forum "Bible Study" for the purpose of delving some of the opinions of the site's users, with the hope of garnering a result which could be used to govern the future content of FACES. Here is the result: centuri0n: Well, let's start with verse 6 -- "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because ofthese things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." What is Paul talking about here? How do we know? cml603: I think that Paul here is talking about people who suppress the truth-people who hide the truth because it is more convenient for them to live their lives with a sense that their is nothing wrong with the things that they are doing than to admit that they are sinning. So instead of admitting that there is something wrong with their lifestyle, they speak "empty words" to try and deceive people of a truth that they are trying to hide from. It reminds me of Romans 1:18 where Paul talks about people who do this. They suppress the truth because the things that are evident to them about God are to convicting for them to follow or believe. new_tulip: The verses that follow read: >7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;I would say that the verses here (and throughout the New Testament) that speak of having nothing to do with darkness speak to the deeds of unbeliever's and not separating yourself from society 'Branch Davidian style.' Our holy living should be the light that exposes dark deeds, we shouldn't simply refuse to even speak with unbelievers at all cost. Otherwise, how would they know about Jesus? centuri0n: So you're saying that we should interact with unbelievers -- but at what levels? It says, "do not participate in the unfruitful deeds". How do we interact with unbelievers and still walk in the light? new_tulip: I think that it is important to be willing to interact on a social level with anyone. The main point of the passage is about abstaining from the unbeliever's conduct and behavior, not from the unbeliever's themselves. Now, obviously when Christian's areout in the world, we should be wary of "sin that so easily entangles" and not be drawn into anything bad that our friends might be doing (which is often easier said than done). But as far as associating with them, weshould always be out there being the salt and light. After all, who did Jesus hang out with when he was here? cml603: The question that I ask myself in this situation is: will the actions of this non-Christian rub off on me, or will I rub off on them. I have to say that I think it is very easy for Christians to get so zealous about involving themselves with non-Christians that they do not make themselves aware of the danger that it brings.The enemy is crafty, and will use those situations to take advantage of our attempted evangelism. "How do we interact with unbelievers and still walk in the light?" Try to remain a boat. In the world, but not ofit. Just like a boat is in the water, we are to be in the world. However, if the water somehow gets into the boat, then it starts to sink. TheNobes: Jude's warning seems to apply here -- To try to drag the sinner to safety but be extremely aware of soiling oneself in the process. centuri0n: So here's the context ofverse 6 -- 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Don't do what those in darkness are trying to whitewash with their "empty words", but instead walk in the light trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Paul gives some examples of this as he explains what it means to be "subject to one another", and then tells us about the "whole armor of God". So to this point, we have some concrete things to deal with:
1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;That's it. We should imitate God and not the world-- and nobody's questioning that. This is reiterated in the passages we have covered already. 2 and walk in love, just as Christ alsoloved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.This is a preparatory statement for v.21 -- "be subject to one another in the fear of Christ" -- as it is the exact same sentiment. Give up of yourselves for the sake of others, that they may benefit from what you do. 3 But immorality or any impurity orgreed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;That is -- you shouldn't do any of the filthy thingsthe ones in darkness do, and not even bring it up. 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.That is, among the saints, no filthy talk, no empty or false words to cover up sins that are being committed. This is not a blessing to circulate dirty jokes at church because no one there is actually doing such a thing, but it is an admonishment to speak the true and lift each other up -- to give thanks for each other and for the gift God has given us in Jesus Christ. Now consider the following, which was given as an example of "coarse jesting" from the old FACES page: This is grace4me, on your left. What a big, lovable fella! On the right is his wife, who is new to CARM, Skellee. At least I hope it's her -- John sent me his picture with this woman, and his wife sent another picture under a separate cover. One photo per family, guys, unless there's a prayer request as for Biscuit.Are we glossing over some sin being committed? No. Does John actually have some woman who is not Shannon? No. In fact, the picture is of John and Shannon hugging. The gibe is over how many pictures they're sending to FACES, not that John and Shannon are doing something sinful, and certainly not to gloss over any sinfulness. (please note: another CARM user continues to assert that this explanation does not actually address what was said here, and that this joke is in fact an accusation of sin. centuri0n apologizes for the offense some have taken, but will continue to respectfully disagree on the matter. Also note that this comment has been altered on FACES to reflect the objections made.) Paul is saying we should lift each other up and serve each other. And FACES is an attempt to do exactly that -- by having fun with each other rather than focussing on the things which divide us. And there are plenty of those issues, as anyone can see. Having a giggle over this example, or over the comment about who Regoatee has innocently sitting in his lap, or about Allan's unintentionally leering grin . . .that's just harmless fun meant to bring us together in good humor -- not intended to gloss over sin. Allan: I keep thinking of how we are to be in the world but not of the world. Jesus ran into problems when he hung out with {Zaccheus} the chief of the tax collectors. He was accused of hanging with gluttons and wine bibbers. Our pilgrimage here means we are to interact with the world in order to win them to Christ. Paul became all things to all men and had the confidence to say "follow me as I follow Christ." Yet Paul wasn't perfect. My time with non believers is spent in not compromising what I believe but to try and be Christ like in my Words and Actions. We are told to walk with wisdom towards the unsaved. It doesn't mean isolating myself from them but it means not to go witnessing to them in a topless club either. My time with believers is always the best because we are family. We can share, encourage each other, pray for one another and help carry burdens. We can be blessed by helping those in our lives financially and other ways. Some men of the church volunteered their time and converted our pastors garage into a room we use for our midweek study and where he does counseling and private study. Verse one says to imitate God as beloved children. No matter how old I get He is still my Abba Father. That's a special relationship. There is something in being child like in that it tells me I need my father sooo much and He wants me to relate to Him like our youngsters do or did with us. Christianity is supposed to be full of joy. I've missed the boat here so often. Joy means so much because it's independent of circumstances. I want more of that. And finally, joy to me is having fun. Especially with my family in Christ. quixote: centuri0n said, "That is, among the saints, no filthy talk, no empty or false words to cover up sins that are being committed." I ask: Where does it say that there must be the purpose to cover up sins? Why limit the prohibition in this way? It simply says "and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks." No mention of covering up as the purpose. centuri0n: If you only read vv. 3-4,you are wrong. It doesn't say that we should just avoid "coarse jesting": it says we should avoid filthiness (the extreme), coarse jesting (the middle ground) and silly talk -- which means all joking at all. It is not just off-color jokes Paul is dismissing: it is all jokes -- if we only readv. 3-4. You have to read the verse as it comes to us --not in a vacuum, not without regard to the rest of the passage. Paul goesfrom verse 4 to this: 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.The empty words in v. 6 are not just any old words: they are the words of filthiness, and silly talk, and coarse jesting ofv. 3-4. Those are the words intended to deceive. In addition, you have not answered the question as to whether v. 6 is referring to v. 5 or all of the first 5 verses of Eph 5. It's a key issue in the structure of the passage. You should further consider all of my comment: among the saints, no filthy talk, no empty or false words to cover up sins that are being committed. This is not a blessing to circulate dirty jokes at church because no one there is actually doing such a thing, but it is an admonishment to speak the true {sic} and lift each other up -- to give thanks for each other and for the gift God has given us in Jesus Christ.If you reject this reading, you have to tell us what Paul means when he says that we should not ever participate in "silly words"(morologia). If Paul is not talking about silly words as they apply inverse 6, you have to tell me what kind of life Paul is advocating that includes no "silly talk" at all. Admittedly, I think the discussion is a little one-sided. I don't think Paul was abolishing humor for Christian circles in Eph 5 -- I think he was telling us that we need to not hides in under the cover of humor, but expose it to the light of our good deeds. While some disagree with me, the discussion has tailed off on this topic and none have offered any alternative to the suggestions on this passage I have made -- no suggestions which do not otherwise abolish humor for our interactions with each other. With that said, FACES will be administered under these loose guidelines:
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